Grogu, AI, Afterburner and Programmers

Welcome to user Friendly 2.0

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with host Bill

Sikkens, technology architect.

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And this is User Friendly.

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I am your host Bill Sikkens.

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Joining me Bill and Gretchen,

welcome to this week's show.

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I'm there.

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So we've had some interesting

things happen.

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We got to go see the new Mando movie.

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We're going to be talking about that

in a little bit here.

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Gretchen hated it, of course,

but she hates everything.

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Star Wars.

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Yeah, right.

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Anyway, I the look on

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your face

does not transmit over the radio, so.

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I'm sorry.

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Which was like, you're about to kill me

for that statement anyway.

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So we're going to be talking about that.

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We're also going

to be talking about an event

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we got to go to called afterburner

at the Air and Space Museum

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in McMinnville, Oregon.

So those are two things coming up.

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Second segment,

we're going to be talking about

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the state of the industry

for publishing and programmers.

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These are questions you've been sending

in dealing with layoffs and so on.

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And what is happening?

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And should you still learn

to be a programmer, that kind of thing.

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So we're going

to be deep diving into that.

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But before we get to all of that,

let's just jump into the news.

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What do we have this week okay.

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Why is Ferrari loose so controversial?

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Because it's hard to say the name

unless you're Italian.

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Yeah, well,

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but it is fun to say Ferrari.

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Yeah.

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There's always going to say Ferrari,

you know, no question about that.

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Why is it controversial?

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Okay, well,

first of all, Luke is an electric Ferrari.

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So just to kind of give you an idea

of where it's going,

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that is where it's coming from.

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And the picture of the car is different

from a lot of other Ferraris.

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And this has been creating

a lot of controversy.

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Now first, look at it here.

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I think I kind of like it.

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I don't think it's ugly,

but I think it looks like

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an advanced car,

you know, like it's modern.

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You know, I think we need to check it out.

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Now, our next topic, spoiler alert,

we're going to be getting some demo units.

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I wonder if I can get a couple of demo

units of this so we can see if we like it.

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Oh, the Ferraris, the electric.

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Oh, I would take one to

I would take a hit for him and absolutely.

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So and testing us a couple of units

I'll give you my address.

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So why is it controversial.

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Well okay. There's a lot of

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I guess subjective reasoning on

this would be the best way to put it.

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But what they're saying,

the professionals, whoever that may be,

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is that most people

that by a Ferrari defy logic

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when they do so price and what it is

and all that kind of stuff.

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And I kind of

could see some logic to that.

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They are expensive cars and they're cool.

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But the thing of it is, is a lot of

what goes for a Ferrari,

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like the speed and stuff you're not

legally allowed to use in most places.

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Yeah.

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So while it has that going on, you know,

this one's being sold in the opposite way.

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You understand it first

and then decide if you want to buy it.

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And that seems to be

what's causing the controversy here.

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So people that have driven it

from the most part

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don't seem to have a problem with it.

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There's a lot of dispute on other electric

cars which are good and which are not.

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There doesn't seem to be a lot of people

going, oh, I hate this.

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It's, you know, that type of a thing.

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It's actually quite impressive.

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So it's well made.

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It's well made, you know,

and it is premium and all of that.

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But it is very different from Ferrari's

other vehicles.

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And for legacy was built

on emotional overload

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and irrational design,

says the person reviewing this.

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And this one is very different.

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So it's kind of interesting

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because this kind of comes down

a little bit to marketing, sort of.

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And just the idea that you have a brand

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that you're selling based on, it's cool

and almost an impulse buy.

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I'd love to be in the, you know,

income bracket, impulse buy a Ferrari.

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But there is the people that can do that.

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Hello, Richard. Anyway, so, you know, it's

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but at the end of the day,

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I think probably looking at it

as far as Evie goes

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and the reviews on people

that have driven it

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and that kind of a thing,

they're very positive.

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It's just it's very different

for Ferrari's doing.

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And the idea here is

if it was under a different badge,

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it would probably would be considered

one of the best EVs on the market.

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Well, that doesn't seem fair

to just pick on it

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because of its, you know, if

it's a good vehicle, it's a good vehicle.

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Well, people pick on things.

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Recently I've been told they pick on

whether there really are 365 days

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in the year,

you know, if we actually have 50 states.

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Hi, Steve.

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Anyway,

there's another what have we got next?

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Well, the box go 10.3

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Lumi Gen two review

sleek, slim and suddenly indispensable.

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So this is an E tablet.

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Bill, can you tell us what NE tablet is?

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Well, it's a Paperwhite

as some people would go.

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Or it's an ink, as they call it.

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It's a kind of like an iPad,

except it's only in black and white.

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Is my understanding. Right.

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So it's mostly for reading.

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And I was foolish enough to see this

article and think it was a drawing tablet,

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so there was something misleading about it

a little.

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You got the impression

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by the fact that it's shown in the article

with someone, you know, drawing on it.

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This comes out a creative block

and they've done a deep dive into it.

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Georgina Kogan is the author.

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She wrote this, and basically what it is,

is kind of what you're talking about.

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You can draw on it, but it is a tablet.

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It's meant to be used for that purpose.

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It's not like the bamboo

or something of that nature.

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I can draw on my Samsung Galaxy

tablet too,

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but that's not really what it's meant for.

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But it will work for taking notes

and that kind of a thing.

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And the one thing about ink that I think

is kind of cool, I like this in my Kindle,

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is that it doesn't use battery power

when it's displaying the screen,

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unless there's a backlight,

which would still have to power that,

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but it only uses power when it's changing

what's physically displayed.

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So it's a little different technology

than your normal tablet, where once

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it's on its drawing power

and these are kind of cool.

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I've got a couple of

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picture frames that are in color,

and they just sit on the wall forever.

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And if you want to change the picture,

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then yeah, it uses

some of the battery to do it.

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Otherwise it just sits there

and it looks like a picture, you know.

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So kind of cool from that standpoint

it's going to be interesting.

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It looks like we're in the line

to get a couple of test units

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to actually try this thing out

and see what we think of it.

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So when they come,

we'll go ahead and do a full review on it.

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Sounds like fun.

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Okay.

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Oscar winning Star Wars editor

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Marcia Lucas has died.

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Yeah, we're seeing a lot of the greats go.

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I know I keep saying that,

but it keeps happening.

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She died at the age of 80.

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George Lucas's first wife. Yeah.

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And as the headline says, did

a lot of editing and that type of a thing.

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In fact, she won an Oscar for editing

on the very first Star Wars film.

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She has done a lot of things

and contributed a lot to the craft

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as it is, and has really been very good

at what she does.

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I, she certainly assisted George

with the production of Star Wars

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and that type of a thing,

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and being able to do this, and is someone

that's just considered to have been

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a good person, good at her job

and just a nice person in general.

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So we have to say goodbye to her.

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She passed away from cancer.

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Oh, geez. More cancer.

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Unexplained flashes detected

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by American satellites built to catch

Soviet cheating on test ban.

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All right, so an article on Space

Daily is where we get this

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kind of a little bit

of an interesting situation here.

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So they saw the flashes

when these satellites went up,

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which was in the late 60s.

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The original purpose of these satellites

was to look at Russia

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and see if they were cheating on the test

ban, that being the nuclear test

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ban from space.

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So all of that's fine and well,

but they immediately started seeing

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white flashes and didn't know what it was.

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But the type of energy

that they were seeing,

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which they could measure, wasn't anything

that was known at least to be used

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in the nuclear program

and what it turned out to be,

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if Russia had had

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this technology, would have been very bad

for the rest of the world,

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because what they were picking

up was gamma ray bursts.

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And this

is something that comes from deep space.

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One burst can actually output more energy

than the entire energy

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that is put out by our sun

during its full lifetime.

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So this is like a lot of energy, right?

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When you look at it

from that kind of a standpoint.

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And yeah, it definitely was something

that was perplexing.

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They figured out what was during the 70s,

published some information on a bit.

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Modern technology has allowed them

to deep dive into this a lot deeper

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to figure out where it actually originated

and that kind of thing.

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under a title called Observations

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of Gamma Ray Bursts of Cosmic Origin

in the Astrophysical Journal Letters.

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Something interesting to look up.

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Actually, it's a good article,

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even if you're not really

into the technical side of it.

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It goes through in some detail on this,

and it is available online.

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So, you know, at the end of the day,

you have something that ended up

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finding something completely different

than what it was designed to do,

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and something that science didn't

really know much about prior

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to it, if anything at all.

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Drones crash into water after

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Sydney light show malfunction

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coming from the BBC Lana Lamb wrote this.

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And what happened is, is 90 drones

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fell from the sky over Sydney's Darling

Harbor during a winter light show.

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Now, before we get into the details

on that, I had an opportunity

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to see the light show

for Star Wars on May 4th last month.

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And you did too.

What did you think of it?

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That was cool. It was really cool.

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But it's amazing how they can keep

all these little devices all coordinated

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and figure out the space that it needs

in order to create the images.

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So this must have been really shocking

when they had this malfunction.

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What was the reaction?

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Well, the reaction, like you say,

it was shocked.

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So it's kind of interesting.

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I was putting out the company that puts

this on is called Sky magic.

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They're based in the UK.

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And the first thing was

it was due to a technical malfunction.

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I'm not sure we needed

a press release on that.

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Well, you know, I just thought

it looked like an interesting story.

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Yeah, well, it it is, it is.

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But you know, that explanation

after the fact,

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they went into a little more detail

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saying that it was due to a problem with

radio frequencies and it caused a glitch.

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And again,

the reporting on it's very interesting.

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The spectators are quoted as saying

the sound of them crashing on the wharf

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was considerable,

even from probably 10 to 15 or 20m away,

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you could hear them physically crash

and smash onto the cement Marina.

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Oh, the statement from Sky

magic was they landed.

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Oh, I

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so then the question is,

is were these expensive to replace?

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I'm sure they weren't cheap.

I'm sure they weren't cheap.

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So official statement from Sky magic.

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During the performance on the evening

of the 25th of May, Sky magic experienced

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a technical issue

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that resulted in 89 drones

landing in the water around cockle Bay.

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Hopefully I'm saying that

right. And that's the wharf.

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And you know,

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like you say with drones, it is amazing

how much actually goes into that.

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Like watching the Star Wars show

and other light shows of this nature.

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Each drone

kind of represents a pixel on a screen,

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and that's the way they put it together

and their color changing and all of that.

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So they can actually make full

on images in the sky.

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And it's quite amazing.

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And the fact that you would have

a technical problem

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with this once in a while

is to be expected.

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In fact, I'm surprised

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and actually impressed

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that they're able to do

as much as they can without problems.

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Yeah.

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Have you ever seen the Skinwalker

Ranch program?

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A while ago from Utah, right.

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Yeah, they they had like,

one of these drone companies

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show up with their drones,

like a whole block of them.

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Kind of like

what you would do in a light show.

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And they were trying to run tests,

and they had some interesting results

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from their placement of the drones.

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And, you know,

the weird stuff is going on there.

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So if you and I are finally going

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to go fly a drone here

in the next couple of weeks

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to let you know how that goes,

I still have to take the test, remember?

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Yeah, we'll do that.

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But anyway, the the thing of it is, is

drones can be very expensive.

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And according to the organizers

and Sky magic,

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specifically built for this purpose.

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And the shows can last up

to 12 minutes long.

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And now I think I can safely say,

Gretchen,

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that a skinwalker was not responsible

for this technical malfunction.

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I mean, anything's possible.

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So if one was, let us know in the comments

and we'll look into that.

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But the thing of it is, is

nobody got hurt.

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And they did come down

whether they landed, as said, by the

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production company

or crashed as they said,

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by the spectators,

they fell in the safety area.

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Nobody got hurt.

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Nothing bad happened

other than, I think, surprising people.

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But, you know, it's cool.

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I would love to see this in person,

this type of thing.

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Not necessarily.

Not going to get to Sydney anytime soon.

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Well who knows, right?

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But they do drone shows like this.

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And for American Independence Day,

July 4th,

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we're starting to see a lot more drone

shows than fireworks displays.

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Just because they're safer.

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You don't have the

I think it would be better.

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Yeah. You know.

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Yeah.

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Well, maybe we can try and see one

of those this year and see what it was.

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It's kind of cool.

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But yeah, that's what happened. And

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I guess it

would have been a little bit of a shock.

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Speaking of which, we got to go

see Star Wars movie Mandalorian, Grogu

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this last week.

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And, Gretchen, why don't you tell us

a little bit about that?

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We got a private showing,

which was really kind of cool.

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It was like a private showing.

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Well, we we really

we went early in the morning

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and we had the entire theater

to ourselves, which was pretty awesome,

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to just footnote

that it was not a private showing

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because they said you could see it

privately in the Imax theater,

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which would be extremely expensive to do.

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But like Gretchen said,

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we decided to see it in the morning

and we went at what, 9 a.m.

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or something? Yep, 9 a.m..

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You know, a little footnote on it.

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I got to tell you, the concession stand

of movie theater does not serve breakfast

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when you're coming to a 9 a.m.

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showing of a movie, though.

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Hey, you know, but it was really nice

because there wasn't anybody

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doing anything weird.

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It was like it was all just for us.

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It was really kind of fun.

What do you think? The movie.

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The movie was amazing because, you know,

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you hear all kinds of weird people

making comments and stuff.

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And I think that was a really fun film.

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The story was done well.

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The they stayed true to the characters.

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The acting was good,

the artwork, you know,

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all of the editing

and all of the special effects were good.

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The costuming was good.

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I can't really think of anything

that was bad.

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Yeah, if you read online, it's

getting good reviews, although there are

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those that are picking things apart.

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And I have to say from my own standpoint

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now, I'm not as knowledgeable

in Star Wars, Gretchen, as you are.

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You know, I think you're

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probably second only to George Lucas

and that maybe even debatable.

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I don't think so.

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No, but in any event, it was.

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I agree, it was a very much

a throwback to the original Star Wars

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movies, where it had parts that were

intense, it had parts that were comical,

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parts that kind of were very,

I don't know, peaceful and thoughtful.

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Yeah, yeah, I love the

it was it was charming.

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It had action and it was charming.

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I'll tell you what, there's been some talk

among certain circles

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that some of the recent things

in the Star Wars

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franchise could end up, like ruining it.

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I think this did the exact opposite.

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I think that you have to go out to

everybody was involved in it

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because it was something

that is what Star Wars was supposed to be.

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No politics

or anything from that end either.

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It was just a good movie

and like you say, true.

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The character is done well and we really

enjoyed being able to watch it.

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And the private showing

was kind of cool in Imax, but I don't know

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if I would say that it's necessary

to actually see this one in Imax.

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I mean, it's cool to do that.

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I think a regular theater is just fine,

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and it will save you a lot of money

on your passes or your tickets.

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I'm looking forward to seeing it again.

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Yeah, at the end of the day,

and I think maybe we will see it again.

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I've been told that

this one is actually a big deal.

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We might try to see it in 3-D.

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Now, I don't normally

get too much out of 3D, but neither do I.

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It's from what I'm hearing, the way

the special effects are done.

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It's not just like people

who are throwing things at you

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from the screen,

it's actually been thought out,

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so it might be worth checking out.

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We'll have to see how that goes.

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Are you going to see it?

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I might.

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I have a schedule, so I don't know

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if I'll be able to or not,

but let's see if I can.

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Yeah, it's a long movie.

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Yeah.

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Be prepared for that. Yeah.

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So don't tell everybody.

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Don't drink

big drinks before the movie starts, okay?

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Because then you'd have to get up.

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And on the list of things

that we're cool to do.

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We got to check out an event

called afterburner at the Evergreen

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Air and Space Museum.

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Now, for anybody that doesn't know

about that, Evergreen Air and Space Museum

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is where the Spruce Goose is.

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There a large museum of that type

that's located in McMinnville, Oregon,

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right across the street

from McMinnville International Airport?

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I say that sarcastically.

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It's an airfield, but kind of a cool one.

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You can fly jet suits there, so you know,

that makes it better than most.

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But the event was something

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that was done

and I thought came off very well.

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And Gretchen,

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I'll give you a moment, in a moment here

to give what your thoughts on it.

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But the Air and Space Museum

has gone through some rocky times,

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especially during Covid and that type

of stuff where there were some talk

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that it might close.

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And from what I understand,

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they've got a new CEO involved

that recently has taken over.

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And kudos to him

if that's what has created this.

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But they have really stepped up their game

recently, and it's so nice to see

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a lot of new exhibits.

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The space Hall, which has been renamed

now, which still has all the space

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exhibits,

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they've also added

a lot of things in there

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that were previously

kind of an empty corner.

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So it was a lot of fun to see.

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We got to see some great cars or Ferraris.

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Yeah,

you know, at the end of the day and again,

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you know, on our previous story,

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if someone wants to give me one of those,

I promise I won't complain.

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So just just send

them to my field box. But

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you better have a big Po box.

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Make it work, believe me.

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Don't worry about I'll make it work

anyway.

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No, but

it just was one of those type of things.

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So, Gretchen,

what were your thoughts on it?

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Oh, well, one of the things that caught

my attention is

396

was really exciting

to see the SR 71 in person.

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Yeah.

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And it was like, wow,

it was just really cool.

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And, you know, those are

400

those are unique planes

from the Cold War era.

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And each plane was unique and different

from each other.

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And they they kept the same pilot

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because the plane would develop

almost a personality.

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And the machines apparently would

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they would drip

when they were on the ground,

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but the minute they took off

and were flying, all of the Seals

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would seal up because of what the plane

was actually doing.

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And it was just a really

it was a really neat thing to see.

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And of course, there were other planes

and helicopters

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and all kinds of rockets,

wasn't there with like a word of a rocket?

411

Yeah.

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No. Was it part of a booster

or was it a missile?

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You know,

that's something left to be debated.

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I tried to get the information on it.

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I think it's probably a missile. Okay.

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Being that it is not NASA

and is Air Force, but,

417

you know, there are similarities

and things like that.

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The one thing is it was very long.

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I mean,

420

you get the idea

421

of the size of these things when you're up

close to them is quite amazing.

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It really is.

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And same thing on the planes

now, the only bad side to it.

424

And next year

maybe this could be an improvement

425

is they wouldn't

let me take the planes out and try them.

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But yeah. What

427

you know, I mean, I got to say,

428

well, don't

you want to fly a jetpack instead?

429

Well, yeah, I was

that's where I was going with that.

430

Of course.

431

You know, that's the apex of flight,

sort of having your own wings.

432

But one thing I did notice is

you cannot be

433

claustrophobic and fly these planes.

434

You look at the cockpit on them

and you get into that,

435

and there's not a lot of room

to move around.

436

There's room for you, and everything else

is instruments and you're strapped in,

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and that's basically the way

that you have to be.

438

Yeah, they allowed

people to go up on ladders and look into

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the cockpits of the various planes,

and that was really cool.

440

Yeah, that was nice.

441

I don't I don't remember them

allowing that before.

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Do you.

443

I think that was a special thing

for the event.

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Oh, okay.

445

The afterburner event is specifically

is a fundraiser for the museum

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and one that's well thought out.

447

You get in and it's kind of done

as a very high end presentation.

448

They had shrimp.

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They had wasters, which I haven't

had a chuck in for a long time.

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That was a lot of fun.

Gretchen wouldn't do it, but.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

453

No, thanks.

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Got to meet people

and all that kind of stuff.

455

And it was just something

that was really cool.

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I don't know,

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we'll have to go back and check it out,

but I don't think it's normal

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that you would be able to get up

and look into them at that nature.

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And the other reason

I think that too, is because each one

460

that was open had a person

from the museum monitoring things,

461

and it seems like a little bit difficult

to staff just during normal museum hours.

462

But it was cool to be able to see this.

463

And if you get to McMinnville,

this is definitely a stop you should make.

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It's Evergreen Air and Space Museum.

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They've got a theater

which we're going to check out next.

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Haven't actually gone to that.

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And then they've got of course

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all the planes, the Spruce Goose,

which just in of itself is worth a stop.

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That thing is huge.

470

And if you bring your kids along

and they get bored,

471

you can dump them off at the

the swim park.

472

Yeah, that's the other thing.

473

Yeah. Wings and something.

474

Anyway,

they have a swim park where you actually

475

climb up into a Boeing jet

and the slides come out of the jet,

476

which looks like it's really kind of cool

to be able to do that.

477

And yeah, just a lot of good fun.

478

And it's not really expensive to go to it

either.

479

Just one of those things.

480

It's certainly worth the stop.

481

They've got a little snack bar inside.

482

You certainly have a gift shop.

483

Of course, there wouldn't be a museum

without that.

484

You have to have a gift shop

that's required, I think. And

485

but yeah, just again, a lot of fun.

486

So Evergreen Air and Space Museum,

check it out

487

online to see the different exhibits

that they have.

488

And again we recommend checking it out

if you get out there.

489

Definitely worth the worth. The check.

490

This is user friendly 2.0.

491

We'll be back after the break.

492

He's from the future.

493

He's got a really big computer

494

and he uses it uses it every day.

495

And he uses it uses it in every way.

496

What you use it for, you know, I'm

not that sure because he is.

497

You guys welcome back.

498

This is user friendly 2.0.

Send us your questions.

499

Send us your comments.

500

We'd love to hear from you. It's

how we do our programing.

501

User friendly dot show is the link

and on our website we have a shop page.

502

If you go into that

you can get all of the Cyber Hawk books,

503

some of the books

from many of the other authors

504

we've had on his guests,

as well as some Stem kits and things.

505

And if you click through to that

and go to Amazon, we get it in a link.

506

Well, actually we get that too.

But we also get money.

507

We get an affiliate

referral. How about that.

508

And what this is, is basically

509

after you've clicked through it

when you go to Amazon, whether or not you

510

buy what you link to from our website,

anything that you make as a purchase,

511

we get a little bit of a kickback on

you don't pay anything extra for it.

512

Jeff Bezos does

and nobody seems to be upset about that.

513

So I'm not I'm happy to take Jeff's

money does help out the show,

514

and is something

that is just kind of fun to do.

515

And plus some of the products we talk

about are available there.

516

Anyway.

517

Highly recommend the Cyber Hawk books.

518

Check those out.

519

I don't know, Gretchen.

Do you recommend them?

520

Yeah. Well, what do you think?

521

Yeah.

522

So and on that topic today

we're going to be talking a little bit

523

about the current state of things

with programmers.

524

And if we have time authors.

525

These are two professions that have seen

a lot of change in recent years.

526

And let's

go ahead and start with programmers.

527

And it's one of the biggest questions

in technology right now.

528

It isn't artificial intelligence, quantum

computing, or even the next smartphone.

529

It's what happens to programmers.

530

We've been hearing about a lot of layoffs

and those type of things.

531

And for decades, software

development was viewed

532

as one of the safest

and most lucrative careers available.

533

Companies couldn't hire programmers

fast enough.

534

Coding Boot camp sprang up everywhere.

535

Parents encourage their children

to learn programing,

536

and the phrase learn to code

became almost a cultural movement.

537

But fast forward today, and the headlines

tell a little bit of a different story

538

about this.

539

We've seen hundreds of thousands of tech

workers laid off over the past few years.

540

Artificial intelligence

can now generate code.

541

Hiring has slowed dramatically compared

to the pandemic boom.

542

And as many developers

are asking the question

543

they never thought they'd have to ask is

software engineering still a good career?

544

So this is something

I do from time to time.

545

Like, you know, my normal job.

546

And I am definitely

seeing a lot of changes.

547

Is it still a good career?

548

I would say yes, but it's very different.

549

And this is one of the things

that going into certain careers,

550

you're going to have to be able to do.

551

I know Jeremy used to be unhappy

with that, that he was trained

552

to be a graphic artist, and

when he started out his career with that,

553

he did, you know, lay out in his own

and all that kind of stuff.

554

And it later morphed into

555

you had to be able to develop websites

and different things

556

like that to be able to interact

with what was needed at that time.

557

And Gretchen, I know that he didn't care

for that much. No.

558

And the thing was, is I,

I trained myself how to do websites,

559

but I didn't do the graphic design.

560

And then afterwards

they started combining.

561

Yeah, all of the careers and then

they started adding in the programing.

562

So I wasn't a graphic designer,

I wasn't a programmer.

563

So I was basically I was out of luck.

564

Yeah.

565

It was skills

became Jeremy had the same situation.

566

And I think that's one thing.

567

And not just based in information

technology and developers,

568

but most occupations, you have to be open

to the idea that it's going to change,

569

because AI and computers

and everything else

570

are not limited to some specific vertical.

571

Whatever you do in life, you're

572

probably going to be interacting

with them in some way.

573

And to that end, that is where they say

574

this is a very different career

now than it was even five years ago.

575

Now, before I dive into the article,

I'm going to talk

576

about my own experience in this

because it's an area that I've had some.

577

I have worked on both sides of the table

where I've been hired

578

for technical positions.

579

I have worked

on the other side of the table

580

where I'm hiring people as developers,

and I'm a developer myself.

581

So first question

is, has AI changed what I do?

582

Yes, dramatically.

583

Is it going to eliminate my job?

584

No it's not.

585

But what I'm finding is two things

that are happening here.

586

And one of them good.

587

One of them in my opinion, not so good.

588

My efficiency is a lot higher

than it used to be.

589

And the hardness of the code I write,

because you can run it through

590

AI that's designed for that,

and it will pick out any security bugs,

591

it will pick out different flaws

and it will streamline the code.

592

And that's great.

I still have to know how to write it.

593

And that's one thing that comes

up as a question can AI produce end to end

594

software project? No.

595

And if you don't know the code

that it creates or how it's created

596

or what the language is, that type of a

thing, you're going to have problems.

597

In fact, we talked about this

not on the air, but previously

598

just between the three of us

599

about a real world situation that I saw

with this, that we had a developer

600

with a company that I work with

that turned in some code,

601

and I'm a project manager

in this particular situation.

602

So it's my job to look at the code,

assign the different things out,

603

and then check it into the master code

base for approving it.

604

And I got code back

that looked really good.

605

I mean, it was very strong.

606

And this is an intern that wrote it.

607

So it's like, okay, this is great.

608

And I needed him to change a few things

in that

609

that were very entry level,

I guess would be the best way to put it.

610

Namely,

the name of the page that was coming up

611

and a few other dialog texts and

figured out he had no idea how to do it.

612

The whole thing

he had generated through AI.

613

Oh yeah, and that's a problem,

614

because we're not hiring people

to be able to work with AI specifically.

615

It is definitely necessary

to be able to do that now,

616

but just writing a prompt

and getting it to spit out

617

code is not being a developer,

and it really isn't.

618

We had problems with this particular

619

topic before, in a different variation

620

where somebody would claim

to be a programmer, get somebody in India

621

to do all of the work,

send the code to this person,

622

and then this person presented it

to us as his work.

623

So this isn't the first time

we've seen this kind of behavior.

624

Know the psychology of it is identical

between those two things.

625

And when we found that out is

he would be able to make the corrections

626

that we had asked for, but it would take

like 2 or 3 days to turn around again.

627

I'm a developer.

628

I know that if I was to go in and do that

myself, it would be a lot less time.

629

I mean, it depends on what it is you're

doing, obviously, but not 2 to 3 days.

630

Well, what it turned out to be is

631

that was the time that it got taken

to send the request back to,

632

I believe it was in the

633

in this case where the programing team

that he had hired

634

without telling us was working on

and then sent back.

635

And then the other problem I had with

that one was is a lot of the code

636

that was sent back,

I later found out was plagiarized.

637

Yeah.

638

You don't have that so much with AI

because it is custom made.

639

But still, at the end of the day,

if you're not able to interact in a

640

right way with it in a meaningful way,

641

which means you still need to know

the language you're developing in,

642

you still need to know

what it's presenting to you,

643

and you have to know how to integrate it

into the whole.

644

And that still requires

the skills of being a developer.

645

Now, being a programmer

today is very different.

646

Like we were saying in the

beginning of this, and it used to be.

647

So let's look back at this

a little bit and talk

648

about kind of the evolution of this.

649

Back when microcomputers started, you did

not have an ecosystem like we have now.

650

So you get your Commodore 64, Atari PC

651

junior, whatever from the early 80s,

and you want to learn the program.

652

Okay.

653

Probably going to be programing in Basic

now was most common language at the time.

654

And how do you learn to do that?

655

Well, there's no Stack Exchange.

656

There's no Reddit.

657

There's no way to go online and look at

other people's codes because read a book.

658

You had to get a book. Yeah.

659

So you had to source this book.

660

If you were in a major area

where they had bookstores

661

and that kind of a thing,

you might be able to find it.

662

But I can remember finding technical books

at even like Barnes and Noble

663

or Borders in those days.

664

They didn't necessarily stock them,

and if they did, it was a very small area

665

and certainly didn't have stuff on niche

skills like a specific language.

666

They would have had basic, I think.

667

But say you're programing an assembler,

668

you know, or machine language assembler

for the Commodore 64.

669

There are books on that, but they wouldn't

have been at Barnes and Noble.

670

So you have to figure out a way to mail

order and where there's no website.

671

So you get something like Computer Shopper

or one of the many magazines

672

that were out during that time period,

and find in the back of that an order form

673

from some company where you send

in a check or money order, or call

674

an 800 number with your credit card

to be able to get this material sent over.

675

That took days. It. Yeah, definitely. What

676

we used to go to Fry's, remember

I remember fries.

677

Yeah.

Yeah I had a selection of these things.

678

Oh they're gone now but yeah.

679

And Fry's was actually much, much later

than early programing to those resources

680

in the beginning.

681

The other thing that was interesting

is things like the Commodore Pet

682

and some of the very first computers

that came out like that.

683

Prior to that, not only did

you need to learn the program,

684

if you bought a computer,

they sent you a box of parts

685

and you were expected to know

how to put them together.

686

And I don't mean plugging boards

into an expansion bus,

687

I mean actually soldering components

onto bread boards.

688

You know, you want a memory card,

689

you solder those chips down

and you figure out how it wires,

690

and you figure out how the latches work

and all that kind of stuff

691

to figure out how to address the memory

properly into whatever the CPU is.

692

These were all things that you had to know

how to do.

693

And the other thing is, during that era

two Commodore 64, why is it called that?

694

It had 60 4K of memory, not Meg, not gig.

695

Hey, that's what you had to work with.

696

And it was less than that

because it loaded its operating

697

system and Basic interpreter

into that memory space.

698

So you were working with about 30 K,

699

you know, and

700

it made for a very,

very different situation.

701

Now fast forward a little bit.

702

You started having bulletin boards and

user groups and other things like that.

703

Internet started coming on the scene.

704

So keep in mind, the World Wide

705

So before that the internet existed,

but not the web.

706

There were other things like gopher.

707

Some of our listeners may remember that,

but it wasn't

708

where you could click on a link

and get the information.

709

And when the web started,

it certainly wasn't graphical either.

710

No. Was text based, text based, you know.

711

Yeah.

712

And so you started to be able

to get access to some more resources,

713

but it was still a lot of times

dialing a long distance phone number.

714

Remember, long distance

and connecting to a board

715

somewhere else to be able

to get to the information you need it.

716

More magazines and stuff were available

and Megan's would have programs

717

you could type in.

718

So you want to play a game,

you know, that's where we're all spoiled.

719

Now we stick in a cartridge or a CD

or download it from steam or whatever.

720

No. In those days you want to play a game,

you had to type it in.

721

It took a couple of hours, and if you made

one mistake, they wouldn't run exactly.

722

And they'd give you line by line.

723

724

you know all those little lines

and you type in the stuff and yeah,

725

well, you know, the other thing

you got to figure too is the keyboards.

726

And those errors weren't very much

fun to type on.

727

There were some good ones,

but a lot of them were very squishy.

728

So, Bill, I know

you said your first computer was a Vic 20.

729

Yeah,

but can you imagine compared to today

730

if you tried to use that,

like for not for nostalgia,

731

but you wanted to write a paper on it

or write software?

732

How frustrating that would be.

733

Yeah, it would be very frustrating.

734

Never remember just messing around.

735

And of course, I coded

a couple of games that I put on set

736

and I just know what it was.

737

It was a very clunky machine, to be

738

honest, compared to what we have now

compared to what we have now.

739

The Vic 20 was a very entry level

Commodore to it, only,

740

I don't know, it was a 4K of memory.

741

It was not a lot. No, it wasn't much.

742

Well, in computers really

743

have changed

how we write books and stories.

744

Yeah.

745

I mean, before

746

when I was in middle school

writing stories, I did it on a typewriter.

747

And so when something got screwed up,

it was there.

748

And you would have to retype

all of the pages because the, the,

749

the orientation, like if you added dialog,

750

you'd have to retype the entire thing.

751

So corrections was not an easy thing.

752

It was a difficult thing, you know.

753

And you talked about offering Bill.

754

Go ahead.

755

No, I just remembered having to use

a typewriter for different things

756

and just how much white out

and all that out I thought was fun. No.

757

But the

758

I started in middle school

with that on an IBM Selectric two.

759

I'll always remember the selector two

and like you say, typewriter

760

and that type of a thing.

761

And they actually use these

for TT terminals

762

to where you would type in code

that way, literally on a typewriter.

763

So it was, you know,

definitely one of those type of things

764

that was very different

from what we from what we do today.

765

And now, you know, Gretchen,

you talk about authoring

766

like research papers,

which is an area that I work in sometimes,

767

you know, back in those days.

768

Not only did you have

the very early computer or typewriter,

769

hopefully you had a computer

because at least you would

770

have had some kind of word processor,

probably to be able to do your paper,

771

but you would have to go out

and do research again, no internet, no AI.

772

You're going to encyclopedias,

you're going to libraries.

773

If you need a special book,

774

it might have to be physically shipped

to that library from somewhere else.

775

These

were the kind of things you do it now.

776

Now, to write that research paper,

you just ask ChatGPT and take some time,

777

hopefully to make sure it didn't

hallucinate anything.

778

And there you go.

I'm not recommending that, by the way.

779

You don't learn from it.

That is what a lot of people are doing.

780

I used to like to wander through

you go through the card catalog,

781

you find a book that sounds like it's

782

what you need,

and then you go wandering into the stacks.

783

And sometimes you would find better things

by just

784

looking at the books

sitting on the shelves.

785

You know, the stacks.

786

Yeah.

787

I just

788

there was a part of that that I do agree

with was actually kind of fun to do.

789

See what you could find.

790

And you know, now that doing

that is so considered, so obsolete.

791

I mean, there's still libraries,

of course,

792

but I know one of the high schools

we work with here in Stem

793

moved from an old location

to their current new building,

794

which is like a state of the art campus.

795

It's better

796

than some state of the art business,

as I've worked with over the years,

797

and the students there are very lucky

to have the resources they have.

798

But they were telling me

when they moved the library,

799

they ended up divesting about two thirds

of the

800

contents of it, of the collection,

just because it wasn't used anymore.

801

And I'm seeing that libraries

like your main libraries, you can go in

802

and you can still check out a book,

or you can check out a popcorn maker

803

in some cases or whatever,

to try to maintain relevancy, you know?

804

And I think that's kind of cool

in some ways,

805

but it's got to be a lot more expensive

to maintain equipment

806

and all the rest of it

and just deal with books and periodicals.

807

You would find some really weird

and cool stuff.

808

You and R,

which is the school that I went to,

809

had an

810

amazing library at the Getchell

Getchell Library.

811

And it was you

just wandered around through the stacks

812

and you could just find really bizarre

and cool things.

813

Some of the books in

814

Yeah.

815

You know, and now, last

I heard, they had some kind of

816

weird machine grabbing the books for you.

817

Well, that's no fun.

818

You're not going to find anything

there, correct?

819

Anybody that knows,

but I understand they've kind of

820

put it back to the old way,

but anyway. Go ahead.

821

Did they?

822

Well, they had the stacks and then they

had the archive, which was the machine.

823

And then they had special collections,

which was anything over

824

certain age rarity.

825

Yeah, yeah.

826

And, you know, so I think one thing,

one of the big questions

827

we get on

this is AI taking programmers jobs. And

828

this is definitely a concern.

829

Even somebody was trying to explain this

as living in the matrix.

830

And it's changing things.

831

Is it taking over jobs? Not exactly.

832

But you have your tools out there

that people use.

833

ChatGPT GitHub Copilot Claude Gemini,

others that can generate codes in seconds.

834

And it does.

835

They can write functions, they can explain

bugs, they can create documentation.

836

They can even build some small

applications, stuff that ten years ago

837

would have been science fiction.

838

In my case, they can do

839

layout and design that I'm not good at

and make it look really first rate.

840

You know, that kind of a thing.

841

Ten years ago science fiction.

842

Today it's Tuesday.

843

You know, we're looking at it from here.

844

But one of the things to keep in mind with

this is devices

845

like that, services like that

don't replace the underlying skill.

846

Calculators didn't eliminate accounting.

847

They just eliminated manual arithmetic.

848

That's one example.

849

And I remember when computers

were coming into the mainstream,

850

I worked for a bank at the time,

851

and they were switching over

from the ledgers and stuff.

852

I'm dating myself a little bit here

into using windows 95 computers,

853

and it was the same type of thing

at that area.

854

Oh, these computers are going to eliminate

everybody's jobs. They changed it.

855

You had to know how to work it,

for one thing.

856

And if you were working for

a good employer, they trained you on that.

857

But you know, for some people they just

it wasn't a change that was valid to them.

858

I have a story from those days

that I just started working for this bank

859

as a developer programmer and running

860

the states IT department, you know, land

and all that kind of stuff.

861

And I

it just converted the department over.

862

It was the compliance department.

863

And the next day I get this

panicked phone call from this dearest

864

lady, elderly lady that worked.

865

I remember this story. Can you?

866

And she's like, freaking out.

867

Can you get over here

before the police come?

868

Before I just and I'm like, well,

it was next building, fortunately.

869

Over. Well, sure. I'm on my way.

870

The police,

you know, that type of a thing.

871

And I go over and get her calmed down

and look at the screen.

872

Your computer has performed

873

an illegal operation in the application

will be terminated.

874

Yeah.

875

And you have to understand that

876

banking prior to all of this, like,

877

878

they had some very strict rules

about how you interacted

879

with banking documents,

how you interacted with the money,

880

and if you did the wrong thing,

you you could be in serious trouble.

881

This is where she was coming from.

882

I mean, she she was scared and I and

I actually sat down and talked to her and,

883

you know, tried to explain the

what it was doing and it wasn't her.

884

And that was just the terminology

the computer used.

885

But it was still definitely something.

886

And she retired a week later

and fortunately was able to do that.

887

It was a neat person, but she wasn't.

888

She wasn't an agent.

889

She wasn't going to learn

a whole new methodology for these things.

890

And,

you know, that kind of thing has happened.

891

The other thing that I said

in the beginning

892

of the segment, that it's got a downside,

and I'm finding myself doing this.

893

It makes you a little bit lazy

AI when it comes to coding.

894

And I have to be careful of that

because it's

895

what are we really generating

code is easy.

896

However, generating

897

correct code that works securely at scale

inside a complex business environment

898

not so easy.

899

You still need,

you know, a human for that.

900

Determining whether the thousands

of lines of code that are created by

901

AI should be used in the first place,

or whether it's the most efficient way

902

to deal with it, you still need engineers,

you still need inspectors,

903

and you still need people to understand

how the pieces fit together.

904

What have I found from it?

905

Again, I can do

certain tasks like layout and design

906

that I'm not good at,

that I have to do so.

907

It's not taking someone's job

because it just wouldn't be done

908

right in a lot of these situations.

909

If it wasn't for this

and making it look really good,

910

could ChatGPT sit there

and write the application for me?

911

No, and I don't know that that's coming.

912

I think, again,

where the downside of this is,

913

is because some of that is possible,

at least at a theoretical standpoint.

914

You have businesses

that are laying off people,

915

and we're going to have AI take over

for these things and then hiring them back

916

six months later because they figured out

that's not the case.

917

And when that happens,

those people ask for more money

918

and they should because of what

they've been put through with that kind

919

of a thing.

920

The other part of it,

too, is the whole hallucination thing.

921

So you have a company

that has an AI write their code,

922

and this is just one example.

923

The legal profession has this with briefs.

924

The writers have this with books

where when the AI hallucinates

925

and they just publish

whatever it's put out

926

and the information is made up

or it's wrong,

927

you know, straight out

or that kind of a thing.

928

And at the end of the day,

929

it just is a situation where

930

this can cause bad things to happen

because it isn't complete anymore.

931

Yeah.

932

But I think one of the points is that

933

we were to

934

come up with the ideas we as the human,

and we should use the AI as a partner

935

to help us make things better

or more accurate.

936

You it's a companion, not a replacement.

937

Yeah, and that's exactly sense.

That's exactly right.

938

And what I'm already seeing this,

939

like we said

at the top with new programmers coming in,

940

your junior developers,

this is creating a problem

941

because they're not hiring

junior developers a lot,

942

because a lot of those jobs

can be replaced by AI, you know?

943

But the other problem is,

is the current people learning the program

944

don't code the same way

and don't have a complete understanding

945

of what actually they're doing, you know,

and that's that's a problem that's bad.

946

So where all of this stuff

is created, situations

947

where it's a lot easier to do things.

948

And when you do need to learn how to code,

there's YouTube, there's Reddit,

949

there's stock exchange

and all kinds of other resources

950

that you can use for that,

but you still have to know how it works.

951

Yeah. So like like I have a robot vacuum.

952

I still need to know how to program

the thing into the wall,

953

and I still need to know how to vacuum.

954

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

955

It's the same thing with the stories.

956

The A's don't have life experience.

957

Yeah, and they're not going to be able

to really write real stories.

958

I mean, that's really up to the human

to come up with it.

959

And I think the AI can help

you do research or fix your grammar,

960

but they're not going to be able

to currently write a novel.

961

Yeah, that will make a lot of sense.

962

And that's, you know, and fiction.

963

You know, you're looking at a standpoint

where

964

that's something

that the human creates the world for it.

965

And it's harder to do fact papers

like a white paper or something

966

a little easier to do with AI.

967

But it's still you have to review it,

and you have to be able

968

to understand what it is you're writing.

969

Yeah.

970

You know, to know if it's accurate or not.

971

Yeah.

972

I've been going through my Star Wars

books and editing them,

973

and once in a while it's like,

oh, I need a quick fact checked.

974

Yeah.

975

And asking the AI is fine

and I can double check my own work,

976

but I'm doing

the thinking it's being the helper. Yep.

977

That's the thing.

978

On the publishing side of it, you know,

authors are still very much necessary.

979

And like you say, the tools help

make you do your work better.

980

I find what I use, like Grammarly

and some of those kind of tools

981

for writing on my end.

I actually learn to write better.

982

I'm having that effect.

983

Yeah, I've learned stuff too.

984

I certainly don't ask them

to write it for me.

985

And the way is are going right now,

they would say, no, that's not ethical,

986

can't do that.

987

Which is another whole topic, but is

definitely something interesting to see.

988

So are these professions

still good to go into?

989

Yes, but you need to be prepared

for a dynamic environment

990

where things are going to change

and what it is

991

five years from

now is going to be different

992

from what it is today

and just be up for that.

993

And if that's something you can do,

994

you can still make a good living,

you can still make good money

995

and be kind of

at the cutting edge of technology,

996

which is very appealing to a lot of us

that work in the industry.

997

But on the same token,

you just have to know that that is up

998

and coming and definitely a part of what

you're going to be seeing in the future.

999

So let us know what you think about it.

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